Welcome to Uniquely Small Biz, a podcast where small business owners share their real stories of success, failure and everything in between.
Carolyn: Joining us today on the podcast is Francine Love, who is not only the managing attorney of Love Law Firm, but you are the founder of the firm as well. Welcome.
Francine: Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here. I appreciate you having me.
Carolyn: Oh, my gosh, it is our pleasure. I want to start, Francine, with your history and your history is interesting in the sense that a lot of people go to law school when they're younger and they immediately get into law right out of school. But your journey is unique in the sense that you didn't follow that typical path. Can you tell us a little bit about your journey?
Francine: Sure. Well, I started on the typical journey. I graduated from law school and went into a law firm and it was absolutely miserable. And I quickly learned that that was not the route that was going to really work well for me. The motto there was, “If we don't see you on Saturday, you know, don't bother coming in on Sunday”. And I thought, well, that really isn't gonna be a nice way to live for a long period of time. So fortunately, a friend of mine worked at a big Fortune 500 company, and so they were looking for in-house counsel and I was able to move and get into one of the claims attorney position there. So I went from being the low man on the totem pole at the law firm that I was at, to now running litigation and having law firm partners answer to me, which as a one year out of law school, I thought that was pretty awesome.
Carolyn: Yeah it is!
Francine: And I stayed in-house counsel for about 20 years or a little longer before I opened up my own firm.
Carolyn: Did you, from your first day in law school, did you always dream about owning your own law firm?
Francine: I think everyone does. I wanted to become a lawyer since fifth grade. I remember standing on the playground, looking around at all the other kids going, I don't know what they're going to do, but I'm going to be a lawyer.
Carolyn: Wow. In fifth grade!
Francine: Yeah. My dad loved the TV show Perry Mason and it was always on repeats on the weekend. And my dad would make me sit and watch it with him and then we would read the Earl Stanley Gardner novels that Perry Mason was based on. And so I grew up just loving the concept of having your own law firm. But then, you know, life took a different turn, ultimately, but then when it came the ability to open my own law firm, I was so excited to get to do so.
Carolyn: What's on in your house these days? I know you have kids.
Francine: I have a six and a nine year old. So yeah, so I watch a lot of kids' shows.
Carolyn: I'll bet. Well, these days, you know, thank goodness there's a real heightened focus on work-life balance. And I can already tell from our conversation that that is something that's important to you, that you've had to work for, that, you know, in the corporate life, when they’re telling you to come in on Saturday’s, that is not work-life balance. And really, it doesn't matter what industry you're in. Right. I think that it's important in every industry. So do you feel like, in your case, going from being an employee at several companies - and I would imagine struggling to find that work-life balance - to now owning your own law firm. Did you make that a priority for you and your employees at your firm and do you make it a priority every day?
Francine: Yeah, that was the main reason to have my own firm was to be able to create a schedule that worked for me and my family. And we've worked very hard to do that. And it's been a real blessing to have the opportunity to have my own firm. I've had employees in the past. I have a couple independent contractors working with me right now, but I always emphasize that there's nothing more important than your family. And everything comes after that and, you know, and including work sometimes. So, I've always tried, including while in corporate America where I worked for someone else, I was the boss that said, no, you need to get healthy. You need to take care of this. If you need to come in late - life is too short to be miserable in any place that you work.
Carolyn: Do you actually say those words out loud to your employees? Do you actually say, “Hey, work-life balance is important”?
Francine: Yes absolutely.
Carolyn: That's awesome. You know, I think a lot of us, and I'm not saying at my company that this happens, but it just, in general “us”, we work for employers that say it's important, but they don't actually say that it's important. So that's why I asked you that question, have you actually said to them it’s important?
Francine: Yeah.
Carolyn: Good for you. Is there something that you're doing differently at your company to address work-life balance? Is it as simple as you saying to your employees, “Hey, go to those doctor's appointments, take a day off if you need a day off” or are you doing, is it structured differently?
Francine: Well, for the most part, other than telling people, as long as you do your work, I don't care when you do it. If you do it in the morning and you're highly productive between five and 10AM, and then you need to take the four or five hours to do other things. And then at night you're going to loop back and make sure everything's taken care of. That's fine. I don't care when it happens as long as it happens. Right. And that the time you give me is time that's focused for the work that you need to do. Now, clearly there are times when we've set meetings and we've agreed on that. That's a schedule, and I don't like surprises. I try and think of anything, whether it's people who work for me or people I'm interacting with at other companies, I don't want anyone coming in and making my day miserable. So why would I turn around and make someone else's day miserable? And that has served me well.
Carolyn: Yeah, it's a respect thing too, right? I mean, just respect that people have other things going on in their lives and while they probably love working for you, they have other priorities too. So the fact that you respect that is it's a big deal. I think in my, at least in my opinion, I think that some of the best business owners are the business owners that give back to the community if they have the means to do so. I know that you are really dedicated to giving back and to, and to serving your community. So what sort of sparked that mission for you?
Francine: My family was always big in that and wanting to help the community that we were a part of. But then, my family, my spouse and my children, we adopted both of our children. And so we've always had a real heart for children who come from adoption. Now, both of our kids were adopted as babies, but several of my cousins, some of my nieces and nephews, were adopted out of foster care. And so a lot of what my law firm does is try and do things to give back to children. And so it's funny that you mentioned it literally this morning, I sent out a blast email to all of my clients, telling them about a fundraiser we're doing right now for kids in foster care. And one of my nieces described moving from house to house with all of her belongings in a trash bag. So what my firm has done in the past, we've raised money and bought duffel bags so that kids in foster care have a bag, at least, that they can put their belongings in. And this year we're doing even more, not only are we giving them the duffel bag, but we're putting in a big Teddy bear, a journal that they can write in, some toys that can go with them that are easy to transport. And so we're running a big fundraiser right now to get at least a hundred of these bags to kids in foster care near us.
Carolyn: I have so many emotions about what you just said, you know, you're sad, but then I'm thankful that you're doing this. You just feel for these kids, the way that you described them, having to put their things in a trash bag to move, and they don't have a stable home. They're bouncing from place to place. That's just heartbreaking. Where did you come up with the ideas for the items in the bag? Thinking just something as simple as putting a Teddy bear in there or getting a backpack into that bag, like, did you sit around with your spouse and you guys were just brainstorming over dinner or where's the idea come from?
Francine: Sure. I mean, certainly talking to Maryanne and figuring out what we think the kids would need, but knowing kids, Maryanne was a public school teacher and worked in a population that suffered from a lot of poverty. And so she knew the things that the kids didn't have when they came to school. And so it was easy for her to say, well, we need to get these things. And then, you know what kid doesn't need a Teddy bear. What kid doesn't need a blanket that they can crawl up under and just snuggle, and feel safe and comfortable, you know, so it was just thinking about what would send a message to a child that someone is thinking about them and wants them to be well. And so that's what we did.
Carolyn: I was watching a video on your page. It was a testimonial from a client of yours and she said something. And when she said it, I thought, wow, this is the most true, just the greatest testimonial I've heard in a long time. She was talking about your ability to take other people's concerns and you sort of take them on as your own, just because you're such a nice person. And she said that you sort of operate from the standpoint of if you were in our shoes, what would you do? Meaning you're very mindful on a personal level of others. And I thought that spoke a lot about your character. So now that you've told me the story about what you're doing for children and your fundraiser, and then seeing that testimonial, I'm getting a very good picture of who you really are as a human being and I love it.
Francine: Oh, thank you. Well, I'm very blessed that one of the most amazing things about being a business owner is that I get to pick my clients and I happen to love my clients. I have found some of the best business owners that I get to support as an attorney. And it's a really cool thing, you know, so I'm an entrepreneur and I'm trying to grow my business and I'm trying to do my best. And I have a lot of other like-minded entrepreneurs that I get to work and support and help. And I just had the best job and I try not to rub that in with too many people.
Carolyn: It's okay to say it. What do you think it takes though, to develop and successfully run a business?
Francine: You know, it takes a lot of hard work, right? As much fun as it is. You really do have to be focused on the basics. I meet a lot of people who have great ideas and a lot of ambition and a lot of, they're great idea people, but they're not great at the little ins and outs of making the business work. And that's where I think so many people get tripped up, right? Most small businesses will fail in the first six months. The next cutoff is one year, then five years. And more than 80% of small businesses have failed within 10 years. So it’s a really steep, uphill climb because there are so many skills that an entrepreneur needs to have to be successful in business and just desire isn't one. So you have to have a great idea, but then you have to figure out how to make business work. And so you have to be, you're not only a chief operating officer, but a chief executive officer, chief financial officer, chief marketing officer. There are a lot of hats that people have to keep putting on and off. And learning how to do that is really important. I tell my clients all the time, they need to have three great friends as a business owner. First, yours truly, a lawyer knows how to keep them out of trouble because I try and look further than where they're looking right now and find the iceberg that's going to sink the Titanic, right. And steer them away from it. Then you need a good accountant. There’s nothing better than having a CPA, who's smart and on your side and helping you make smart decisions about how to avoid taxes, how to maximize income, you know, those things. And then the third is having a really good risk person, someone with insurance and other ideas like that, to help you mitigate the risks that I, as a lawyer can’t help you completely avoid. And if you have those three, then with your hard work ideas and, you know, doing all the shoe leather of getting out there and letting people know who you are, I think you have a pretty good shot at success.
Carolyn: I love how you put that, because I think so many people that want to run their own business or start their own business. It's overwhelming. With you breaking it down like that, like, okay, you have a good idea now here's what you need. Now we can kind of start the groundwork instead of sitting there, just wondering, you know, what it's going to take and be worried that you're going to fail. A couple of episodes ago, we talked to a business owner that said, “Yeah, when I was starting, I had no idea that I needed to be an expert when it came to, you know, buying a van to do deliveries for my business”. And it's those little things that you don't think about that you kind of learn along the way, and I'm sure that has something to do with what you said about businesses. So many of them failing so early on because you're just not prepared.
Francine: Yeah, definitely.
Carolyn: I would have to believe that in your line of work, there could sometimes be a mindset that working with small businesses isn't profitable, but you have actually dedicated a part of your work to working with and helping people with limited resources. So what drives that in you to do that?
Francine: People forget that small businesses account for 50% of the businesses in the U S. And so when you think about that, that's a whole lot of market share that the big law firms aren't going after, which I'll happily take, right? I'm more than happy to work with them. And these, most people are employed by the normal mom and pop, the smaller mid-size regional local businesses. And why shouldn't they have access to quality legal advice? And why should that only be reserved for some upper echelon of companies? It doesn't make sense. And there's a lot of money to be had in servicing a broader range of businesses. So, you know, I don't charge, like one of my dear friends who's at a big law firm. Her billing rate is $1600 an hour.
Carolyn: Which if you're a small business, $1600 an hour is not an option.
Francine: We can't afford that.
Carolyn: Good for her if she's getting it.
Francine: Right. But it really limits the people who have access to her in her counsel. And so why do we have it to where people can't get good quality legal care. I'm trying to bring it down to people who are just the regular folks, trying to earn a living, trying to provide for their family and trying to make it in a way and with something that's their passion. And so let me help them do that. And so that's where I've chosen to work.
Carolyn: Hence your motto, “Build not Billed”. It all makes sense. I want to get personal with you for a second. I think this is actually extremely important because I think your story could be so beneficial to so many people listening. So if you're comfortable with it, I would love if you could share your story of coming out at work in the 1990s, a time when being part of the LGBTQ community was still something that so many were, were very nervous to be open about. Can you share a little bit of your story?
Francine: Yeah. You know, it was just over time, you know, you kept, I kept hearing about more and more celebrities who were sharing what was going on in their life. I was watching the political environment and people were debating whether or not all rights should extend to different people. And I thought - and of course I'd had some family members who were also gay, but had stayed closeted and felt that they couldn't say what was true in their life for fear of losing family, friends, or relationships. And I just felt that it was incumbent upon me to say, no, this is the case. I mean, I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified that people would look at me differently or that, people would interact with me differently. I wasn't, maybe I was just dumb. I wasn't worried that I was going to limit my career, because I felt very strongly that I was good at what I did and no one would want to lose me as an employee and that was probably naïve, and, you know, I've always been told by my spouse that I don't lack for confidence.
Carolyn: Sort of a backhanded compliment.
Francine: Exactly. I mean, I didn't feel like I was putting my career on the line. I felt like I was risking all of my friendships at work and that people would treat me differently or not want to be around me or, you know. But, you know, I told one person and they're like, “Yeah”, and it didn't seem like a big surprise. And then I told another person and they were like, “Oh, that's awesome”. And then it just became easy to speak true. And then it became easy to put the picture up in the office of the love of my life. And then it, you know, and then it just became, well, this is it. And if you don't like it, that's fine. I'm not asking you to go out and do anything that you don't want to do. Certainly, this is my life and I'm going to be open about it. And it's been amazing, the difference in stress level and you know, not having to hide pronouns or lie or, you know, none of that. It's just, this is my life. And you know, you're welcome to know me or not.
Carolyn: It probably felt like, as you mentioned that huge weight was lifted off of you, you've been keeping it in for so long and finally, and go figure right. When you let it out, finally, people are like, oh, okay, cool. Yeah. I've struggled with this for so long.
Francine: You know, I was never, I always say I was never a “girl” in quotes. Right? I didn't like dresses. I didn't wear makeup. I feel like there were a lot of things that were probably clues to people that, you know, I didn't, I wasn't the most feminine, you know. In many ways I don't think it was a shock to people. Right. But at the same time, it was nice to say it and to acknowledge it and to just get to be me was just what I always just wanted to be. So that was helpful.
Carolyn: And to set some examples for other people too, there's that. You've got people that you're working with, even though you're working for someone at the time, there were people that look at that and say, oh my gosh, I can do that too, because she did it. So, it's a big deal. How old were you about when that happened? When you came out?
Francine: Oh God. Now you're asking me to do math.
Carolyn: I know it was in the nineties.
Francine: My dad raised a lawyer. He didn't raise an accountant. In my mid-twenties. I would say.
Carolyn: Had you come out to your family before you came out to your coworkers?
Francine: No opposite. People at work knew before the family.
Carolyn: Oh my goodness. You were testing the waters with the co-workers. But do you try now to empower LGBTQ business owners in a unique way?
Francine: I am always excited when I find. Other people who are family, who come and are my clients. I really love working with other LGBTQ business owners. I actively, you know, reach out to those communities, you know, on Facebook groups, et cetera. You may feel that law is a conservative field and it can be, there can be some super conservative people. I'm not one of them. And if you are at all, holding back from reaching out to a lawyer and getting legal help, because you're afraid that someone's gonna say something about your sexual orientation or treat you differently because of the type of services or what you're trying to do. That's not going to be me. I like all my clients. I love working with all my clients and I try and make everyone feel welcome. The other trademark that I have for my firm, besides the “Build not Billed” is: “Isn't it time you learn to love your lawyer?” Which is how we try and make people feel in the firm is lawyers shouldn't be intimidating. They shouldn't be obnoxious. They shouldn't be condescending. They shouldn't make you feel stupid for coming to them, asking for advice. They should make you feel empowered to make the right decisions and to move forward with your business. And so that's what I try and do.
Carolyn: Well said. If you had to do it all over again, would you do anything different?
Francine: No, because then I might not end up where I am now. And I love where I am.
Carolyn: Great answer. I love that answer. What's next for you? What's next for the firm?
Francine: Oh, look, we're just continuing to grow and that's really the exciting thing. We continue to have more clients are in new fields. I always love picking up a client that's doing something completely different. I have interior designers, extreme executives, coaches. I have a honey farmer. I have a funeral home. I have tons of doctors and lawyers and accountants, and a lot of professional practices. Actors, production companies. And I seem to have the corner on the market of magicians in New York City. They’re great guys. I love working with them.
Carolyn: Well, it has been an absolute pleasure talking to you today. It's Francine Love, find her online lovelawfirmpllc.com. Thank you so much for chatting with us today.
Francine: It was such a pleasure, Carolyn. I appreciate your time.
Carolyn: All right. Well, joining us now is Chalina Acosta, Vice President of Total Rewards at Selective. Chalina, you're going to talk to us, I know, about work-life balance, networking, and much more. Thank you so much for joining us today.
Chalina: Thank you, Carolyn. I'm very excited to be here
Carolyn: Yeah. We’re so excited to have you. This is the first time talking to you, so I'm really looking forward to this and your title, Vice President of Total Rewards at Selective. It's a unique title. So can you tell us a little bit about what you do as the VP of Total Rewards?
Chalina: So as a leader of Total Rewards, I have a team that's responsible for pretty much how Selective rewards its employees for everything they bring to the company, so that includes everything from how we pay employees, in base pay recognition programs, short and long-term incentive programs. You don't just choose the job you're doing, but you stay with that organization because you feel like they have your back and they value you and they pay you fairly. And they treat you well. And that you have all the things you need to take care of yourself and your family.
Carolyn: That's a big deal. You have had a busy year. It sounds like you did a lot in one year in a difficult year or two being that last year was the pandemic for the entire year. I heard that you lead a group at Selective called Women at Work, and I think that's a really neat. I want to know more about what that means to you guys and what that program is all about.
Chalina: Yeah. So this is one of my passions. I love supporting employee growth. So a little background, about three years ago, I collaborated with another leader in the organization to develop what we call Women at Work. It's an affinity group for our female employees. And at the time we had been a few years into a similar initiative with our agency partners that was going so well. And it was clear that we needed to put something in place for our own employees, too. I, you know, the insurance industry has historically been led by males, right? Like a lot of other industries, there's this huge opportunity to tap into your female talent pool and advocate for women and create a network where they can help support one another. One of my favorite parts of the Women at Work network is the opportunity to network with each other. So most of these women on a normal day-to-day workday would probably not interact with each other, but now they have this opportunity where they get to network with women that may not even be in their own building, let alone their own department. When we first launched this group in 2019, we held a networking mixer and we brought all our new members together and we also invited anybody who wanted to come and just learn about it and the pillar members did a great job. They created a networking tool kit that really just helped you figure out how you network because let's face it. You walk in the room. You don't know anyone in the room, you're nervous about how you start a conversation.
Carolyn: You just start sweating, you stand there. And at least I do. I just stand there and kind of go, well, I'm here, but now what do I do?
Chalina: Yeah. Yeah. So it was great. They did these conversation starters. We did a speed networking event. That was a ton of fun. We even had men come and they were just as nervous probably because it was a room full of women. But it's awesome. It's a great opportunity for women across the organization to really network with one another. Even during the pandemic, they've been doing virtual networking events now coffee breaks, and just making sure the group stays connected.
Carolyn: So it’s like you said, even during the pandemic, you know, networking was almost more important because you weren't seeing each other, you know, to your point, one thing that you mentioned though, that I want to talk about a little bit is work-life balance. When speaking with Francine, you know, she talked about her experience early in her career at law firms where the firms that she worked for, they just expected her to constantly be on the clock and constantly work. So from your experience, what kind of impact does a work environment like that have on employee satisfaction and employee turnover?
Chalina: Yeah, it's everything right? So I say this, if you want your employees to stay with your company and give you their best, they need to feel pretty supported and valued. And if you can't give them that, they're going to find another employer that will, or you might do like Francine did and start your own company where you can do it yourself. But when an employee feels burned out, they're not going to be able to give you their best and at the end of the day, that environment is so critical to why employees choose to come work for you or stay with your organization. So that is everything.
Carolyn: It’s a big deal and it's important. You know, another thing that Francine and I discussed, or we touched on was being your authentic self at work, right, for her, that meant coming out as a member of the LGBTQ community to her coworkers. So when it comes to your role of trying to ensure that employees feel safe and they feel happy at their jobs, what do you think is an important step or maybe the most important step a business can take to make that happen?
Chalina: Yeah, it's funny. I, you know, I've been in HR my entire career, so I've always had this philosophy and I'm sure many people do this about company culture needs to really align with your personal values. Right? So when you work for an organization that not only recognizes that every employee is unique and has their own set of circumstances, but encourages them to also be their authentic self. It's really powerful. You know, 2020 was, was a tough year and in 2021 is not looking much better, but we had a pandemic and we had social unrest across the country. And honestly, our employees were grappling with so many different emotions. And I can tell you one of the things that makes me proud to work at Selective is that we did embrace that opportunity. And gave an employee, gave all of our employees a platform to openly talk about some of these things and do it in a safe environment and give them that opportunity to share experiences and things that they have faced and be their authentic selves and not feel like there was going to be any repercussions for that.
Carolyn: That’s neat because it's like therapy at work without having to pay for it. Right? Like that never happens that your employer comes to you and says, we just want to let you speak, tell us how you're feeling. Like when does that ever happen? So huge kudos to Selective.
Chalina: Yeah, it's huge. And we've done some other great things. And I think this all talks to helping employees feel like they can bring their authentic self to work. We do a lot of things to try to celebrate different perspectives employees have, whether it's International Women's Day or Black History Month or Pride Month. And we really focus on the employee experience. And that's one of the things I love about what I do is I get to focus on the things that employees value working in an organization. And it's one of the most critical components of keeping your employees happy.
Carolyn: All right, one more question for you before we let you go. You know, Francine mentioned that she thinks that every small business owner needs three friends to help them succeed: a lawyer , an accountant, and an insurance agent. So what advice or tips could you give to a small business owner about managing human resources issues?
Chalina: Yeah. So I would, I, I love her. It sounds like a funny joke. Just add that one of those friends, or at least the business owners should have some pretty strong people leadership skills, or at least some sort of focused on the HR. A lot of small businesses, outsource HR, just to make sure that they have fair practices in place and that they're handling their employee relations issues pretty consistently and keep themselves out legal trouble. I mean at the end of the day, it boils down to making sure that you have an environment that people love working for you, and they feel valued. They feel supported. And if you have a great team and they all feel that way, I guarantee you, you're going to have some pretty successful business results.
Carolyn: It was so fun talking to you today. I learned so much, and I'm so happy for you in the success that you've had. Thank you so much for being on with us today.
Chalina: Thank you for having me. It was a lot of fun.